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| On FandomSecrets, there has been chatter about literacy issues. Allow me to share a couple quotes. Nah man, it is the reading. Kids are unable to read whole works and need "interactive media" or to have works broken into small bite size bits to be able to function. Plus, reading comprehension is at an all time low. So even if they are able to read they don't fully understand what they're reading unless someone spoon feeds it to them. I work in education in the US. It has gotten so bad over the past 5 years or so, though there had been a noticeable decline even before that. For both those in/near the education field and those more removed for it, I have some questions.  What are your thoughts on this? What factors do you see contributing to this the most? What actions do you think can reverse this trend?Color Bar Sig   ![Merit Badge in Music
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This is why parents should read to children before they even go to school.
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| I was home-schooled up until high school, so I did a lot of reading. I think a lot of kids, people in general (including myself), have to be “into” a story to be able to fully immerse themselves and enjoy it. I took college level English courses and always got As, but I usually didn’t do as great for reading comprehension. If I don’t enjoy the premise of a story, or an article/textbook, my mind wanders while I’m reading. So, sure I can read it a couple times and absorb what it’s about, but that doesn’t mean I enjoyed doing so. A lot of literature that is included in the education system in the US is not as important as it’s made out to be, in my opinion. I took one literature course where we were allowed to choose from a list which books we read. I always excelled in that class because I was reading things I wanted to read. Kids don’t want to read books that hold no importance to them. And while I think it’s important to read different types of literature, just because a kid doesn’t comprehend and memorize the entire storyline of Beowulf, it probably just means they weren’t into the story and should be able to seek out similar writing that they would enjoy.  H a p p y  h o l i d a y s  Winter Signature |
| That is a good idea. I had a couple of classes in high school and college where some of the reading was chosen by the teacher/professor but part of it was also books that I got to pick myself. It is nice having the option but also putting in some reading that is standard. |
| Okay. As a former teacher (and one whose son is studying teaching as we speak), in Australia, reading comprehension suffered a down-turn in the 1990s, then an upswing in the 2000s, a downturn in the 2010s, and an upswing at the moment. It seems to be cyclical. But the way literacy is taught in Australia is different to the way it is taught in the USA. The downswing in the 2010s was when a new national curriculum was brought in that de-emphasised phonics; phonics were re-emphasised during the lockdown school period of COVID, and comprehension has gone up. The 1990s downturn coincided with the then-government's pulling of funding from public education at a massive level (some has been restored, though, taking inflation into account, not all). However, modern students (and modern people under 25 or there abouts) seem to have a far greater visual comprehension. An older person who is not used to it can read a graphic novel and miss the subtleties in the fames that fill in backstory or lead to foreshadowing, whereas a younger person, or someone used to it, can see that and get more out of a visual text. I know when I was studying teaching, being a comics person, I could see things the other teachers could not in visuals, and this includes motion pictures. The issue in Australia for our students is that they are not going to see movies as much because they are not giving them the visual stimulation of story-telling that they want. But they do read and get the comprehension out of what they read. So, I am guessing it is cultural in the way language is taught. Our students do not seem to have an issue with comprehension any greater than previous generations. Sorry. |
| I don't dent that is a very helpful practice. That said, it doesn't always happen. For some people, it's something they may not financially be able to do (either in getting books or working very long hours that reduce the amount of time they can spend reading to their child(ren). With this group, it's been easier to identify systemic issues that are causing this to happen. Implementing solutions is another story. Still, at least here we know where to start. There is another group that I admit I'm baffled by: those parents who don't want to read with their kids even though they have the time and money to do so. I admit I'm clueless as to what the reasons are for this group. Anyone out there have any ideas? Tiled Name ![Merit Badge in Newsfeed 7
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Maybe they don't have enough time to do so, especially if they are extra tired from work.
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| I'm not sure why you're apologizing. While there are significant cultural differences (such as a national curriculum), there are similarities. The de-emphasis of phonics is one such similarity. The moves some states have made to address literacy issues place a good deal of emphasis on rebuilding a strong phonics foundation. The READ Act of Minnesota is one such example. I am curious how amenable to change teaching instruction is in Australia. In the US, there is resistance from Colleges of Education. I first heard about this through the writings of E.D. Hirsch (which stems from the late 80s and got some updates in the 90s) and have seen this trend continue into the present day. It's frustrating to watch from the outside. Stikabet ![Merit Badge in Forum Posts 7
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| The national curriculum us teacher curated. I was involved in the science curriculum. The phonics debate is never-ending, but with them back on the table and data showing how much they improve literacy and hence comprehension, it seems it's going to stick for a while. Some differences are: formal education starts at 4, we do not (and haven't done) sentence diagramming, kids stay at school/ in education until 17 , and computer aided writing last year was disallowed (but so is social media for kids now as well). I also need to point out here teachers are paid well and classes are funded reasonably. So, some differences to go with similarities. |
| Do you think interest is also a factor in earlier tmyears (I'm thinking up to age 8 or so)? While a lot of the observations are can definitely apply to older children/teens, I admit I'm not sure this holds as true for kids learning the basics of reading and reading comprehension. Tiled Name ![Merit Badge in Seasons Winter
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| I do think that allowing little kids to choose their own books would not be helpful. Though, To be fair, I was home schooled until high school like I said. So I’m not really sure how the education system is for children younger than teens so I can’t really speak on how differences may work for younger kids. H a p p y h o l i d a y s Winter Signature  "The Long Poetry Contest"    "Join the Short Fiction Roundtable" |
| I would say that scenario you suggested falls into my first bucket, where people don't have the time (as well as the money). The second bucket (which is likely more middle/upper middle class) is the one that baffles me the most. Fish Stik 2 ![Merit Badge in Visit WdC 7
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Well, sadly, some folks don't care.
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That's legitimately surprising to me, although I admit I did take a fairly regimented path in high school. My IB literature classes had some of our books selected at the (inter)national level, so there wasn't too much wiggle room available. Curiously, in college/university, my English classes didn't have opportunities to choose books to read for our classwork. I had more luck on that front with my history and poli-sci classes, though.  Tiled Name ![Merit Badge in Job Well Done
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| The class I had in college was a different one that allowed us to pick a book. It was a very small class for Sci-Fi Lit. The classic literature classes tend to be more strict about which ones we had to read. |
| I suspect school funding overall may have a more direct impact than teacher compensation. I know a fairly high percentage of the teachers in my state have master's degrees, which increases their pay. This has not strongly correlated with improvement in reading comprehension, though. Tiled Name |
| It's been a while, but on the weekend I spoke to a US teacher. She's been teaching children under 10 for over 15 years. She gets $57k a year ($85kAUS). I stopped teaching 10 years ago, and had been teaching for 11 years, and I was earning $88kAUS ($56kUS). My son (who is studying teaching) told me I'd be on $98k ($61kUS). So we get a little bit more. However, she said that they get the equivalent of around $50/child in resources for the classroom. Teachers are expected to spend their own money on resources. In Australia, teachers get $1000 plus $150/child in resources for the class, plus whatever money the school itself has, plus donations, plus council allowances, plus allowances for children with special needs, plus, plus, plus... We are not exactly under-resourced. She also told me that many schools she has worked in in the USA do not have what she would consider a library. So many people complain about so many books that some schools just have the bare minimum to prevent issues. She also told me that school boards have rights of hiring and firing teachers and that teachers have to respond to the whims of committees in the school. She said being a teacher is a constant state of panic and worry. Our libraries are large, with some schools sharing libraries with the local community. Parents have no say in hiring or firing practices. Both of these things resulted in me not understanding the system in the US. I do not get it. Anyway, I think this is an interesting comparison between our countries - teachers get paid similar amounts, but the amount of money given to classes here is so much higher. |
| Back in 2000 I was in college - an IST and Electrical Engineering majors. I also volunteered as a tutor (part-time) in my Algebra classes. There were ' a lot ' of kids fresh out of high-school, and who had a couple years of algebra behind them, that were so far behind. In fact, some of them had to drop the courses and take a math refresher course - what an extra $1000 they were putting out for this additional class. This class brought them from the sixth grade math to the twelfth grade - then they had to take pre-algebra, another $1000, before returning to College Algebra I. I'm not sure if the actual college assessment test was a true measure of their ability. Seems like it wasn't to me. Today, I can only imagine how much worse this problem has become. |
| Interesting that you bring up math. While the stats on math comprehension aren't stellar, the reporting I've read indicates that math scores are slightly better than reading in some parts of the US. It seems the STEM push may have had some unintended consequences. Stikabet |
| First, let me say that this discussion thread has been both thoughtful and thought provoking. I appreciate both the varied positions and the polite exchange of ideas. It’s been repeatedly stated here that reading comprehension skills could be bolstered with parental participation (when available), but I’m wondering if lack of comprehension and reasoning skills aren’t reflective of the type of society that we are (d)evolving into. Most arguments these days are basically ad hominem attacks on the presenters of an idea, rather than the idea itself. I remember reading an article not long ago where Israel actively encourages reasoned debate in their classroom. And this is a very small country with an oversized record of scientific accolades including Nobel prizes. |
| Rational thinking is a part of both society & environment and health classes in South Australia as well, where arguments are looked at rationally. As a teacher, I had a list of fallacies the curriculum told me to teach the students to watch out for, and these were 11-13 year olds. Yes, ad hominem was one. We had in-class debates about things in the news, and it was brought up by students again and again that the online world does not know how to debate properly. Just something else the Internet has destroyed. Seriously, with the disinformation, theft, toxicity, and "dumbing down" of people... is the Internet really that good? And we seem to have drifted from reading comprehension... Sorry! |
| Seriously, with the disinformation, theft, toxicity, and "dumbing down" of people... is the Internet really that good? Honestly? I think the internet is more of a neutral thing. It's a tool, one that can be wielded well or with stark negative consequences. The internet has been helpful for autistic people who are nonverbal or limited verbal skills. The internet allows for text-based communication that moves pretty quickly. It's easier to get support and maintain relationships. Similarly, it helps people in various minorities find support. This was definitely the case for me when I was in Florida in my 20s. At that point, I'd just discovered that I am in fact an atheist, and atheists in Florida are pretty rare (especially in the exurban/almost rural county where I spent my childhood and summers in between school years). On a lighter note, I've been able to get solid travel and book recommendations from the internet. Had it not been for online meandering, I wouldn't have read things like Bad Blood or wandered out to Jupiter Artland in Scotland. Sometimes the internet can be used to discover (positive) experiences I might have missed. Stikabet ![Merit Badge in Secret Admirer
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| Do you remember the age(s) where classroom debating was done? I actually had these kinds of opportunities in my teens (in a US high school, no less). However, I'd be surprised to see it done at the elementary school (which is where more of the recent concerns around reading comprehension stem from). Fish Stik 2 |
| Here, it is done from year 5 (9/10 years old). My son used to love it; my daghter hated it. The idea is - and I did this as a teacher, so I've first-hand knowledge - is that the teacher takes a topic from the news, reads an opinion from the paper, and the class debates it. Every child must say something. If they disagree, no abuse is allowed, all language is calm. The teacher takes note of who has spoken and who is next, and indicates the next child to speak. The teacher CANNOT offer a single opinion or hint of where they stand. How is it graded? Only by participation. One comment - meh; 2 dozen comments, well thought-out - great! It is called 'rational thinking' and is a part of the Society & Environment subject. |
| I do wonder if hearing a teacher reading something aloud at the stage of their education would help or hinder reading comprehension. I also wonder what would happen if students were given print copies to follow along (in case they have auditory processing issues like I sometimes do). Color Bar Sig |
| This is standard amongst 5-8 year olds here. A teacher or SSO reads the text and a small group of students follows along with their own copies, then they take over for a page, then the next and the next and so on. Only works well in small groups (3-6) but it does seem to help engagement at the very least. |
| That setup sounds pretty close to my basic reading lessons back in first grade. Such a setup still appears in some US classrooms, but implementation may vary. Fish Stik 2 |
| Okay, this is weird, but here goes. The decline in literacy standards in the USA is currently being traced by the written manifestos of mass-shooters, looking at the literacy levels over time, and initial reports are showing that the decline has become marked in the past 10 years. This tells me two things: 1) the USA has enough mass-shooters (3 or more dead) to actually be able to use tis as a study, and 2) US killers really like to explain themselves before they go full-on Travis Bickle. I thought I was getting a handle on the USA, but then something like this throws me out of whack... |
| Heck, I LIVE here in the good ol' USA ... and I can't say I disagree with you, Steven. It's really getting to be a bummer. I can't say such a study is surprising. |
| I'm curious how this analysis is controlling for other socioeconomic factors (such as parental income and any other behavioral issues that may impact learning). Tiled Name ![Merit Badge in Appreciation
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| In the USA, many lower socio-economic communities were established in the areas near factories, highways, railway yards and areas where there is heavy truck traffic (refineries, siloes, etc.). Therefore, the children of lower socio-economic communities are exposed to higher levels of pollution, especially lead. Lead poisoning can lead to delayed learning, as the lead displaces the sodium in the neurons. They also become unco-ordinated, and so even sporting prowess is impacted. And, worse, this stays in their system and can be passed on to the next generation. So, yes, there is a very real impact on learning in lower socio-economic communities because of where they were literally placed. I say placed because when the Afro-American returned soldiers demanded their land, which white soldiers got, they were given land beside highways. This is one example. In Australia, we have seen the children in the towns where lead manufacture or high steel manufacture takes place go through similar decreases in educational outcomes (Whyalla is one such town), and so much has been done to turn that around. It's not the lack of money but the societal treatment of those without that creates the issues. Of course, I do not know how well schools are resourced in the USA; in Australia, libraries are so frequent and so large (and books are not banned) that any parent can borrow and take books home to read to their children; in fact - lower socio-economic families and higher socio-economic families are more inclined to read to their children than middle levels, according to Australian studies. |
| This explanation certainly covers historical factors but doesn't really address contemporary factors. I could see factors like lead exposure be an issue for kids living near small-ish airports (as smaller planes still use leaded fuel). However, given that there are concerns in a wide variety of socioeconomic groups (including those who have more than adequate resources), I don't think the explanation provided really hits the root cause. By the way, do you know the title of the study or article where you first saw the tracking of literacy via manifestos? I've been trying to verify this myself but so far have only seen a text post from Threads. Stikabet ![Merit Badge in Creativity
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| I went back to college in 1999, and I never considered myself a math whiz by any stretch. However, almost immediately in algebra, which I never took before in any school, I seemed to fly beyond the majority in my class.. After three weeks, my instructor wanted me to head a learning group over in the Library building, so I did. Not only was this in my class, but the entire college. Most of the students that were fresh out of high school, and should be smarter in this topic than a 45 year-old, who quit in the 10th grade, weren't. Many of them I ended - up tutoring outside of college just to bring them up - to - speed in Algebra I class. I notice the same thing in my writing classes and my computer classes (but I expected that here). -------------------------------------------- I can't help but feel that those who were in school in the 80's & 90's were the last of the well educated in our school system. We are seeing the results of cutting school funding to save a few dollars. When I was in junior high and high school we had a very expansive music and art program - I learned to play the trombone, the drum, to draw with pencil and charcoal, to work with pottery, to do string art and paper mache - we were even taught how to write a song in our music classes and three foriegn languages, basic Spanish, German, and French, by the 8th grade. By the late 90's it all changed!! Most of those schools cut the these programs and were starting with the sports, then they started attacking the lunch programs, then they started cutting the time of a class, and how much training our teachers get and then they shifted power to the parents. But now they want teachers to be a form of military or security for the classroom, some even want teachers to carry guns, but for the same pay. I believe it is the responsibility of the school to stop those students at the door - not after they're in the building sitting in a class. Our educational system needs to expand - not shrink. !! Social Media Destroyed The Internet |
| Lead is not just a historical factor in many cities where lead paint was used in homes. In industrial areas the soil was polluted. I worked in a lead detection program years ago. Children were basically "lead detectors" and even after treatment were sent back into environments with high lead. It's not just educational issues. "Lead exposure has also been associated with decreased hearing acuity, language handicaps, and antisocial behaviors..." |
| Do you happen to remember if these same students also needed tutoring or assistance with any English/literature courses they took? I remember the 90s being a bit of a rough time for math instruction (as I had more math teachers that were not effective at teaching than I did good ones). Language and literature, meanwhile, seemed to be a bit easier to at least find competent teachers. Color Bar Sig ![Merit Badge in Blogging 7
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| I'm sorry I didn't know any of that about those students - they were only in a couple of my math and IST classes. Also, I had other students, none of these at all, in my Finance related classes. I was taking a double major you see. Accounting, and IST with a minor in writing ( academic of course). My English and writing classes weren't with any of those students from the above groups - I took evening classes for this. But, there were a lot of students having a very hard time with Essays and writing mechanics, some were even older (out of school for 15 years). |
| It's interesting to hear students were struggling with essay construction at that point. Then again, I feel like the heavy instruction I got in essay writing during my schooling was somewhat new at the time (that time being the 90s). It might have been a timing issue. Stikabet |
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